SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, dear travelers, and welcome back. Evan here. Two weeks ago, I shared the first part of my conversation with one of my best friends, the man who inspired the character of Jason Argyle. Today, as promised, we're picking up where we left off. In part one, Chase and I talked about the strange journey that brought Signed and Blood to life, a few of the pieces of ourselves and our backgrounds that found their way into it, and some of the questions that come with turning real people and real experiences into fiction. For part two, we're going somewhere a little more personal. We're talking about fatherhood, about the joys and challenges of raising children, about the things we inherit from our parents, the things we hope to do differently, and the kind of people we hope our children will become. And perhaps most importantly, we're finding out what the real Jason Argyle hopes for his own children. After the interview, I'll also be sharing the latest ritual of thanks, where I take a moment to thank the people who support Signed in Blood and perform a small blessing using my own chaos magic practice. It's my way of giving something back to the people who help keep this strange little journey moving forward. And with that said, let's return to our conversation. Enjoy part two of season one's Questions and Answers.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

There has also been a novel that's been written. There have been short stories that have been written. Lots of times there is a fantastical element, but it does not by any means take the same shape as Signed in Blood. And I was wondering, what is it about this story in particular that inspired you to perform it rather than construct it more in the like novel short story format that some of us might be used to?

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yeah, thank you for that context. And um just to clarify for folks, I wrote a manuscript also on my phone in the notes app uh in between taking calls at work.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

There's no stopping the artist. Yeah. He's gonna get it done.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Yeah, I mean, if you've got an idea for something, you've got a phone. Uh in this day and age, you're pretty much you're set. But no, nothing published as of yet. So don't be running out to the Barnes and Noble looking for it because it's not there. Not yet, anyway. But yeah, that's a very good question. So I had experimented with the podcast medium before during my time in the dance world. I hosted a podcast in the middle of the pandemic. Everybody had a podcast, but I was trying to give back to the community that helped to raise me up. So I was trying to get stories from black dancers about a black art form. But with this project, it was very much tied to my magic practice. As I've said before, Sun and Blood is a ritual offering. A lot of people don't know what that actually means. When I mention the keeper of stories, I'm talking about a specific deity that I made a pact with. And you don't have to, you know, side note, this could all be gobbledygook. You don't have to believe in magic to enjoy the story. In fact, many of my listeners don't, and I'm totally good with that. And as a chaos magician myself, I part of the foundation of the practice is belief as a tool. A belief does not have to be true for it to be useful. This could all be bullshit. And that's sort of the fun with any of this. But the keeper of stories is nomenclature that I use for this deity because they are actually, you know, held in high regard by cultures whom I do not belong to. So I do not claim the keeper publicly because it doesn't feel like I have that cultural right to, but I still have a personal relationship with them, and I've still made this pact, and the my practice does revolve around them. So that's my private area of worship, I guess, for lack of a better term, devotion or spiritual exercise. But I had a year, according to the terms of the deal, the podcast was predetermined, it it had to be a podcast. So for a long time, what I thought this show was going to be was actually a discourse on toxic masculinity. Because like you, Chase, I grew up as a white kid in America in the early 2000s and the nineties, right? And we swam in very particular waters. We were exposed to very specific cultural upbringing, a lot of which was pretty poisonous. And I see a lot of young men today dealing with those issues. And my original goal was to have a discussion about how I escaped a lot of that line of thinking because, you know, I was I was not immune to it. There were v ideas I had about gender, sexuality, et cetera, that were just frankly abhorrent. Um and when I look at young men today going down that same path, it's terrifying. Like I was blessed to have been taken in by and educated by FEMS, by queer folk, by women and non-binary and trans folk who allowed me to see the error of that poisonous way of thinking and how important and life-saving empathy can be. Because we really do all need each other. So it was my goal to like have a podcast about that, but it was just a little too big for me. I couldn't figure out how to say things that need that I felt needed to be said in a way that would be effective and could actually be heard uh by those young men. And that's not a project I'm giving up on by any means, but I had a limited amount of time before the terms of the deal dictated that I had to launch the show. So it was actually a chance meeting with you when you had uh you were coming back from Iowa. I remember it was um last summer, and you had gone to help your father clear out his old house. And I remember you sent me this text message saying, like, hey man, um short notice, but what are you up to? And I was at a I was at an anime convention um at a hotel like five minutes away from the airport, and um I was about to go to a rave, and you sent me that text message, and you're like, Yeah, I'm I'm actually at Denver International because I had a layover until you know I'll be here all night. And I was like, dude, this is perfect. Hop in the hop in a cab, come over, and um we'll we'll party. And I remember before we went to that rave, uh, met you at the hotel bar and we were having this talk. I remember I asked you, hey man, it must be really great to, you know, you've been away from your lady and your kid for a week, you've had all this time to yourself. That must be really nice, right? And I remember you looked at me and you're like, actually, man, this is the longest I've been away from my daughter since she was born. I actually, before I left on the trip, I remember going into her room, looking down at her in her crib, sleeping, and I just started crying because I didn't want to be away from her. And it was that moment that I was like, oh man, we are in very different life tracks. And uh, you know, I'd known that, but that was the first time it really hit me. And then it got me thinking about like my own ideas about fatherhood and whether or not I'll ever be a dad and how I feel about that. And sort of that was the moment where all of these disparate ideas about fugitive magicians and uh religious order hunting them and everything, it just sort of because I I was I was planning on writing that in a novel or something. And then it was just like, oh, this this is it, this is the show right here.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yeah. I mean, I'm honored that I could say anything that would spark creativity in anybody, but yeah, I absolutely remember that it was a very trying week in a lot of ways, and then yeah, a chance storm was like, hey, you're gonna spend you know, a half hour in Denver, just kidding, you're gonna spend all night in Denver, and then you know, expecting like, oh, maybe we could like find a bar or something, and it's like, no, I'm at a full-blown convention of something that you know almost nothing about, and uh well uh let's just live it up. And yeah, it was nice to have that time while people were preparing, while people were were getting ready for the actual you know event at night to sit at the gorgeous like I've never been in a more beautiful hotel bar in my life. It was yeah, insane. It had been a very heavy week and you know, stuff, family stuff, and then it was the first time I was ever away from my daughter, and yeah, it's it's a very weird feeling because, you know, on paper versus in the heart versus in the head can, you know, sometimes be in conflict. And uh yeah, I think that that's something that you've picked up in your show as somebody who is not yet a parent, the conflict that comes between in each moment, really, the keeping them safe versus the wanting to see them as an individual versus the things that they do that just drive you up the wall, and then also at some level wanting to have a friendship. Yeah, I I think that there have been elements of that that have really shine through in the work. And as somebody who also knows you as a performer, Evan and I were introduced, not initially, but uh hanging out, hanging out. Um he had a a starring role in a play, and I believe I was tree number 17. Um but uh seeing the man of work.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Don't sell yourself.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Yeah, yeah, it's just because I was tall. Um but uh seeing him at work and the performance aspect of Signed in Blood is such that getting to experience this story outside of the written word, I think it emphasizes certain points that may have otherwise been not necessarily read over, but maybe not seen with the same depth and clarity. And I've really enjoyed the form. And from the listeners that I know personally, it's something that they've really enjoyed as well, knowing that they've known you for a number of years and they enjoy the sound of your voice and hearing the passion that you're putting into it.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah, I I really appreciate that. And I'm glad that I have you as my guest here for this Q ⁇ A because I also have some questions now that you bring it up about your experience as a father. Because we don't know if you know I I may get to experience that someday, I may not. But regardless, I did my best, and I do my best to put down both sides of that fairly. You know, I'm not a parent, but like I I had a hard relationship with my dad. I still do, like we're technically estranged. I know that there were times that you had uh a rocky relationship with your dad. And I think it's just part of growing up as a guy, as a man in America. There is a lot of my friends have had like really aggressive at times relationships with their dads. I I think I have like two or three that it's been copacetic the whole time, at least as far as I yeah, as far as they've told me. So all that to say, as a new father yourself, I'm always curious about like how these things, you know, um how the story reads to you, uh, not just as somebody who the main character was based off of your daughter and your soon-to-be-born son, you know, are in the early stages of their journey. They're not um they're not anywhere near their teenage years yet, but it's still yeah, like how do you experience the story as a new parent? And also as a new parent yourself. Are there things that you can like sort of look back on with your experience with your dad and your mom and sort of like you have a new insight now?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

So I highlighted it before. My parents had very different circumstances. By the time I had my first kid, my dad had had four, all with my mother. My siblings and I are pretty close in age. And it is something that I think about a lot. You know, who I was at 21. I'm the oldest. They had me when they were 21. And um no, uh, no thanks uh for a great many reasons. But also that not only was that person not ready, that that person wasn't ready to admit that they didn't know everything. There's that it was at the verve pipe that when I was young I knew everything. That's one of my favorite lines in all of music for the simple fact that you could not tell me anything. I knew exactly what the the 24-hour plan that would end all wars. I knew exactly what an artist needed to do to break through. I knew how certain people were gonna get back into Hollywood and what made a great song, and you know, you couldn't tell me that I couldn't dance, you know, just like there um I was subtle about it, but that person could not be taught unless they were feeling it. And now one of my favorite things in life is being wrong. One, because I'm a pessimist, so um, and that's something that not a lot of people like to hear, but it's true. The world needs pessimists because they're the people who make sure there's enough escape hatches in planes and whatnot. But um being older and getting used to the idea that I don't know anything, let alone half of what I thought I knew, being open to ideas from different people. And I think that the experience of having a kid soon to be kids older is a lot more comfortable to me. I would love to have the energy that I had when I was 21. Oh god, yeah. Um, but my fuse is so much longer. My reminding myself, I'm trying to teach this kid big ideas and they're not even three. You know, and like the ability to keep that in perspective versus the person who wants like the instant, like, you know, you will do as I say, you know, I am your fearless leader, follow me, and maybe one of us will, you know, uh flourish and the other one will just kind of be subservient to the that that might not be a great way to put it, but you know, so that's something that that I think has been helpful that my parents they had to work multiple jobs, they were never in a space where they weren't exhausted to some degree. And then with those circumstances, still then coached soccer, they were involved in Boy Scouts. I remember distinctly there was a time where my mom, my dad was the artist of the two. My mom does crafts and she's she's very handy and crafty. But like my dad like pretty much only took art classes in high school and like had sold stuff by the time he graduated and stuff. And uh I remember dad wasn't around and mom helped me paint a picture because we had read Hatchet, and it was like for extra credit, and like if you paint a scene from a book or something like that, and it was you know, a raft going over a waterfall, and like remembering how involved they were, and so that's something that I want to take into fatherhood being older and just reminding myself like, no, I don't feel like playing on the floor. I had a rough day, I was on the train forever. She's not going to be little forever. Like, no, I genuinely don't want to watch any more Bluey. But it's making her laugh and the Australia isms uh shout out to our friends uh in the Outback.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Um three listeners in Melbourne right now. Yeah. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 18:09

And I hear nothing but good things. I hope to visit one day. But uh, you know, wanting to to participate and then getting to share some of the things that I love. There are certain songs that it's it's not all the ABCs and twinkle twinkle little star like putting her to bed singing emo songs because you know, she she just gravitates towards it because uh she's mine.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

And uh things like she's got big feelings for such a for such a small girl.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Yeah, she's a complicated little human and I love it. And I want to take those lessons of like I don't even remember my parents drinking coffee. I don't know how they did it, but wanting to take the volunteerism and wanting to be part of things, you know. I think that was something that for the things that I want to do differently, um, that's something that I really want to do the same, to be a an active participant and letting their interest like my parents didn't tell me to play football. I did it because I wanted a girlfriend. I lived in a small town and it seemed like a good idea. And it wasn't, it was terrible. But you know, like my my parents didn't push me to play certain instruments or be in certain plays or anything like that. They they let the river wind as it would and then were just supportive.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

So that's really beautiful. I come back to that idea of like when I was young, I knew everything.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

And obviously, yeah, I very much had a good streak of that myself. I do miss that certainty in some regard, but there were always times where I I don't remember a time where I didn't also feel doubt.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Aaron Powell It was comfortable to be that certain, even looking back and being like, oh, that person was a jackass. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Um But it's But that's a that that was friction that came between me and my dad, like in the last year of our actual like us talking to each other was he was just always cons convinced that any point I made it was because like I was young and didn't know anything. And it was like, no, I'm not even I'm not saying that I am the arbiter of truth here, dad. I'm saying that this is an important thing, and you're not listening. And that is sort of what came through with the conflict of Kat and Jason is that and like my dad, I don't I love the man, I don't like him, and that's why we don't talk. You know, it's a very distinct feeling. And I'm sure there's plenty of people who have similar relationships. I read that the rise of parental estrangement is um steadily progressing with our generation, and I've got thoughts about that. But with all that said, you know, my dad did his best. I know that. I understand that. And he taught me things that make me who I am today, uh make the story as good as it is today. So I will always be grateful to him. It's just I don't think we'll ever find peace in this world. But it was just that that misrepresentation of like, oh, you know, you just think this way because you're young and you think you know everything. And I'm like, no, I I don't. Like we could have a discussion, but I didn't go to med school, so my opinion isn't worth, you know, anything, I guess. So with all that said, uh this is hard to I guess uh figure out what I'm trying to ask you. With your kids, as they grow older, there are going to be those points of friction that you don't, you know, maybe that you see coming, maybe that you have no idea what it's gonna be about. What I guess what are you looking forward to most of Them reaching their teenage years and what are you dreading?

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah. No, those moments are for sure coming. And if karma is real, I'm going to get kicked in the head pretty hard. I don't know if I believe in it, but uh yeah, if it's real, it it's common. I'm dreading not being able to keep up. And I think it's something that is it hits every generation, right? You know, like the the parents who drove horse and buggy, all of a sudden there's automobiles around and they're trying to be like, wait, uh you know, an engine does what? But in this case, stuff is changing so fast that, you know, not only from like a wanting to protect them realm, which is top of mind, also from just like a general understanding of by the time they are in high school, it is not out of the realm of possibility to think that somebody is going to be working on like functional, like Neuralink stuff, or that they might have like an AI teacher for a class or something like that. And I want to be able to keep up enough that I can speak to things intelligently or learn from them in a way that they feel like I'm I'm paying attention and absorbing, but at the same time wanting to ground them in the beauty of walking by the water and having a deep conversation with a close friend and experiencing art and stuff that challenges you, stuff that moves you. Like I remember there was a movie we had seen where I'm in the back of the car, you were with a partner at the time, and I was like crying in the background because I was just like so moved by a movie that had happened. And like letting art affect you. I remember we had gone to an acting festival a long time ago, and we saw Bang Bang, You're Dead. That was done by a high school. I I can't remember where they were from, but the the final of that was like basically these people dressed as ghosts and then them pulling out red ribbons from where they'd been shot in like a school shooting. And I don't remember there being a dry eye in the house. I mean, just people like openly weeping, you know, and this was with all the toxic masculinity that that we grew up around, we were crying amongst strangers because you know, letting art move you in good ways. That first time I heard two guitars playing in unison, and it just like it makes the hairs on your arm stick up. So wanting to be able to keep up, but also wanting them to have those moments where they can experience things a little bit slower, have time to process because we're in an instant gratification world. And as far as like the stuff that I'm looking forward to, I really hope that they feel that they can confide in me when there are times of doubt or like, hey, I really want to go for this thing. And I can almost guarantee it's gonna be something I'll know nothing about, where they're like, hey, I want to play trumpet and jazz band, and I'll be like, cool. I remember the kids who did that. They were they were great. You know, but I'm like, like, I I I played trombone and I was terrible. Um you know, the things that excite them. I hope there's overlap. I would love it if they love soccer, I would love it if they want to go out for the school play, you know, stuff like that. But if there's not, I can learn how they score cross-country. I can learn more about debate or you know, stuff like that. So I think I'm really excited for getting to have conversations and treating them like adults, you know, when they're teens. Obviously, I'm still their parent, but you know, getting to talk to them because there are things they're gonna know more than me, just inherently with how the world's moving. And then also when they do start to show interest in things, being able to help them be excited, but also recognizing I really, really need to make sure I don't smother. Because I I will probably be super stoked the moment they're like, oh hey, I'm into golf. And I'm like, I'm not, but yeah, let's go. And I'll have like the buttons with their faces on it, and tr trying not to be overbearing.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you'll figure it out. I you know, I I'm very grateful to my parents for always letting me do my own thing in regard to choosing my own interests, and it's a conversation they had amongst themselves. They weren't gonna push me or my sisters any one particular way. I was never pressured to go out for sports. Like any sports I did go out for, I went out of curiosity, and then I realized that martial arts was my thing for the longest time. My dad talks about how he had a discussion with his mom where my grandma was saying that a child is like a lump of clay that you have to form. And my dad No, a child is like a seed that you you plant and you water it and you see what happens. Yeah. And I will I will always be grateful because it was that sort of I was just having this discussion yesterday with my partner that uh because we're talking about finding your life's purpose. And I was one of the few people that knew from very early on, I read The Alchemist by Paula Quelyu at like 13, and knew, knew, knew with absolute certainty, uh the certainty of youth that I would be an actor. And I told my dad and to his credit, you know, he never once tried to discourage me, even though the path is ridiculously hard. He just said, Son, um, okay, I hear you. And the only thing I you can do whatever you want to do, you can be whatever you want to be. Just ask yourself this one thing What can you do for me that I can't do for myself? And if you can answer that, then you will find success in whatever it is you choose to do. If you're gonna get up on that stage and you're gonna be an actor, what can you give this audience that they can't get just staying at home watching TV?

SPEAKER_03 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

And the answer to that is, you know, everyone's gonna figure that out for themselves. And I I knew that um, you know, eventually acting wasn't gonna be the path for me, and then I I knew with absolute certainty that I was gonna be a dancer, and I did that for many years. I traveled the world and all that, and then I knew that I needed to start writing, and I wrote my first manuscript and all that, and everything built on itself to become this show, and this show I couldn't tell the stories that I can tell now without all those other experiences, and that's all just my parents, my mom, and my dad supporting me, encouraging me, even if they didn't get it. Um I think yeah, they they still don't get a lot of what I do, but that's cool. Like I still love them. But it wouldn't be possible without both of them just saying, All right, kid, figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, I imagine being on the other side of it, how difficult some of those moments might be, too. If your kid is leaning in super hard to one thing and you just know the odds are terrible, or you know that it is fraught with predators or danger or something like that, being able to be supportive while also helping them to navigate realistic expectations, being able to be like, you want to do this super niche thing that I don't know much about. I'm encouraging you, I need to do a lot of reading. Or in the case of your father being like, I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm saying if you're going to do it, what is it that you are bringing to the table that, yeah, somebody is not getting from sitting at home doing it themselves?

SPEAKER_02 30:42

And my mom, to her credit, she took a little more surreptitious route to it. I mean, she was very openly supportive, right? But there would be periods where, you know, we'd be driving along and the radio would be on and I'd be singing along. And my mom just out of nowhere one day is just like, Hey, um, what do you think about if I were to put you in voice lessons? Right? And I'm like, Oh, that'd be cool, you know, and yeah, as a performer, that'd be really great for me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Because I didn't I didn't do choir in high school, so I had no like training or anything like that. And so she finds me a voice teacher that was within our budget. She took me to those lessons, and it wasn't until many years later that I was, you know, I was talking to her about something or other, and she brought up the voice lessons, and she was like, Yeah, you were very tone deaf. It was driving me nuts. Like I was like every time I had to take you anywhere, and you didn't have a license, so I had to take you everywhere. You'd be singing, and I, oh my God, it was really painful for me. So I did this so that you would have a shot.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

And I'm like, Oh, I love you so much. I love you so much.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

I thought you were gonna be like, she heard you singing, and then she leaned over and spike, have you considered writing? I just I I I think you could be a great writer one day.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

No, that was my sister. That was my sister. She uh she had gotten onto the computer after I left for college, read through all my old writing, and she's just yelling up at my mom, going, Mom, he missed his calling. He should be doing that.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

She knew before anybody else.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Yeah, exactly. No, I owe her a coke. Shout out to Mary, if you're listening. Neither of my sisters have listened to my podcast, I'm pretty sure. But it's one of those like I think they this is the bad part about being a podcaster as a white man, is that you tell any woman that you have a podcast, and you immediately see their eyeballs just start to recede north into the back of their skull. Because it's like what they think I'm doing is I'm getting on a mic with a bunch of my friends talking about like why men aren't men anymore and why women should do this, that, and the third. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I swear to God, I'm doing an actual thing, like this creative work. Yeah. Um, so if like I I tell my sisters about my podcast, I'm like, oh yeah, that looks great.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

And then like I never hear about it again. But yeah, my my mom did me a real solid and she never she never she got me to where I needed to be without letting me know at the time how arduous it was for her to hear me caterwall. Yeah. So really respect that.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

God, I love that woman. Um for many reasons, but also I I had never heard this story, and so I'm like just aces, absolute fantastic human being.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

I'm listening to a podcast right now, so those of you who have made it to episode 20, which I hope is all of you if you've listened this far, because again, we've gone through so much together, but I talk about how grief is a really important thing to hold and to hold gently. And as part of my therapeutic work, my therapist had me listen to this podcast, which I highly recommend for everyone. It's called All There Is by Anderson Cooper. And for those who don't know, Anderson Cooper, he lost his mom recently, 2019. She was Gloria Vanderbilt. I didn't realize that she was this his mom was this iconic piece of 20th century history. Uh but his father died of heart disease when he was like 10 years old. His brother Carter committed suicide when in front of their mother when he was 23 and Anderson was 21. And so when his mom died in 2019, uh three years later, he started this show when it was time for him to clean out her apartment, and he's going through all the things that she left behind for him and all the things that she had been holding of Carter and his father as well, because she couldn't she couldn't deal with those things. And so listening to this is it's just been this really healing experience. I highly recommend everybody go listen to this show because grief is something that we all will deal with if we are lucky, because this this is what is left of your love after this person is gone. Yeah. There's this I mean Stephen Colbert, he's the second guest or the first guest, second episode. Uh that discussion alone is just a priceless 30 minutes of absolute humanity. But it got me thinking as well of the things that we leave behind for our kids. And Anderson was talking about how his dad wanted tape recorders in the hospital so that he could leave messages for his kids after that, you know, he was gone because he knew he didn't have long and kids weren't allowed at the ICU at the time. And by the time that he had gotten the tape recorders delivered to his hospital bed, he had lost his ability to talk.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

So wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Yeah. For those listening though, there is a a happy end to that because he sometime later, because his his father was had written a book about fatherhood, and um somebody who had done the interview on the radio station had sent Anderson the the recording. This is like decades later, and so he gets to hear what his dad wanted for him and his brother and his dad's voice. So it did turn out, but I guess that leads me into I guess my final question for you, Chase, is what do you hope to leave behind for your daughter and your son? What do you hope for them as they grow up? Because eventually there's gonna be parts of your life, their life, where you won't be able to be there. Yeah. So I guess what do you do with that?

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Oh, it's terrible.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Uh no. Uh you know, light fair to wrap up. Yeah, right. Everybody knows what kind of show this is already, after what I've done to the Argyles. They're on you if you're still here, you're on board.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Yeah, I mean, you know, you're you're in it. So I have amassed a bunch of physical stuff that I am for sure hoping not to leave them saddled with. But, you know, they're like little things from collections that I have that I think meant a lot to me. Ultimately, I would love to leave them with stories. We put a lot of value on physical assets and not saying they're not important, they totally are. I want them to be able to be left with some God willing, some kind of a nest egg because I will be an old because I am an older parent. The idea that there might be something that sets them up in the future would be great, and we're we're my partner and I are taking steps towards that. It's really she's the driver and she's the one doing all the work. I don't I feel like I'm cheating off somebody else's paper right now. She's doing the hard work and she has the literacy for that, and I'm writing her coattails. But I wanting to leave them with stories where I come from humble beginnings. My parents came from humble beginnings going all the way back. And during the pandemic, I don't know if I hit a men of a certain age thing, or I was just cooped up too long. But I got really into genealogy, not thinking like, hey, I want to find what kings we're related to, or are we related to Herman Melville or you know, whoever it may be, but more general pathways that were taken. I found out that there's one county in Iowa that people on both sides of the family had ended up in at one point, which then for all the generations of human beings that I knew, and I was lucky enough to know multiple great-grandparents, none of them were from there. So being able to see some of that migration, being able to see some of the the names, like, oh, old names are the best. Um Cornelius. Yeah, and I've I've never taken the ancestry stuff, but like seeing through documents to be like, okay, so I know that there was some of this in there, I know there was some of that in there, can I make those connections? And but like they have family that did really cool things. My great-great-grandfather was one of the first people to it, it was before buses, it was horse and buggy, would take kids to school, rain, sleet, tidal wave in central Iowa, whatever. But you know, beyond heating up bricks to make sure that the kids were warm under the blankets to get to class, he found out which kids were hungry and didn't make a big deal about it and just fed them. He found out which kids were wearing the same thing over and over and over, and he pulled from his own kids' clothes to then give them something else. My great-grandfather owned a very popular bakery that my partner's dad used to go to all the time and they would like interact. Wow. And like this this isn't the Capitol of Iowa. You know, this isn't where we grew up, where there was less than 10,000 people. I mean, this is the capital. And it was kind of one of those like politicians when they're doing the Iowa caucuses might have bumped into him. He was a shriner. We don't have an astronaut in the family, we don't have somebody who created a moxicillin or you know, like a Norman Borelog type figure that figured out how to genetically modify wheat to change the path of human history. I was recently reading about him. That's amazing. Sorry, go on. But you do have but we do have a long streak of people who wanted to in some way be of service to other people. And people who just liked people. Class clowns. My dad and his brothers, like four stooges. When they all get together in the holidays, it's like they're all fifteen and these are men in their sixties. Well, I guess not Uncle Travis, but like you saw some of them interacting in Florida. I mean, it's it's very much slapsticky and goofy and no jokes off limp, you know, they're just children. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

It was it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yeah. I want to share with them the stories, the time that you know we were scuba diving and grandpa saw a turtle and just went completely off the reef, and nobody knew where he was because he chased a turtle in the open ocean as somebody who had never been inside the ocean before, you know, and yeah, just we're weird. And and you know, like sharing them that stuff that's gonna make them smile when we're all gone in the way that when I look at, you know, a picture of my dad's mom, she she died during the pandemic, and and remembering her making beautiful, simple dishes that like we would have punched each other in the face to be the first of the pot. The the grandmother who had the wiener dog that lived what seemed like 50 years, and you know, just like how much she loved that dog, and then how we would like run around her house her the brick house in Des Moines and and you know hang out. But we are generally of a humble place, but also we we just get into shenanigans and we, you know, try to have a good time and make the most of what we have and try to involve as many people as we can. And I also I want them to know that their dad wasn't always right, but he would try to understand them. If they end up having a different outlook on life, if they end up having a different experience, I mean that they guaranteed will. But you know, if somebody tells me, You know, later in life, that they are trans or non-binary. If they tell me that they're gay or bi, if they tell me I want to go down this path that you know nothing about, I want to leave them with a feeling of being supported to the best of my ability, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

And of that I have no doubt. Your daughter is already one of my most favorite people. I think I like her a little better than you, to be honest. But absolutely fair. And I can't wait to meet your son. But knowing you and growing up together with you and seeing the man that you've become, seeing the father that you've become, I have no doubt that those kids are going to have the most stellar experience. So looking forward to seeing uh all of you on that journey. And thank you, man. Thank you for assisting with this Q ⁇ A. Thank you for just being the best friend a guy could ask for. And yeah, thank you for listening and always telling me what you thought of the story. Because it really does mean a lot. There's right now, right now it seems like it's me just yelling at myself in my own closet and then sending it to my friends and loved ones. But your enthusiasm really carries it to, you know, I was like, oh yeah, this this could be something. So thank you, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

No, I I love that you've kept up with it and getting to hear things where it's still like in the idea stage and it's in its infancy. And then I remember a time where you hated writing a paper in college, or you know, you were just you were more a stage presence, more of a dance presence, more of a a song and dance man. And seeing the stories that are coming out and seeing them in this form too, I'm like, man, I just I'm feeling spoiled over here that I you know, I've been seeing it since middle school, the the different forms that one artist can take. And I don't always understand it. I don't always speak the full technical language to fully understand, like, oh, this story is about this, this dance is about that, but it's all exciting and the passion shines through. And I just count myself fortunate that I get to be an early reader and uh an early person to consume this. You know, it's very exciting. And I look forward for both the people that we know and then the people that we don't know, just getting bits of what's going on inside of your head and how you tell the story. It's very exciting. And I hope that we have friends join in from all over the world, and I hope that uh people reach out because I know that there are going to be people picking up on every single continent, and I know for a fact that Evan would love to hear from you all. Maybe we can make this a thing where if people start dropping questions or you know, people want some deeper insight to the story, the technical bit, where his mind's at, hit us up. I might help him with some of the logistics, um, you know, trying to get things in a consumable format. Um and then also, you know, just interacting on the socials, you know, now that we have a full season down, something that you can do is you can leave a review if you'd be so kind. You know, that goes a long way for a show of this nature, or hitting up the Buy Me a Coffee link, because anything that goes in there goes directly towards producing more work and more art for everybody to consume.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Very much appreciate that, bud. And yeah, guys, the uh y'all, the Discord is open. Link is in every episode description and the about podcast description. And we will wrap it there because this is already obscenely long. I'll see what the final product ends up being. Feel free to stay tuned after this if you are still awake. There will be a brief, as I mentioned, uh last month, we're going to be doing the ritual of thanks for my most recent donors. So that will be happening in just a moment. But with that said, Chase, thank you so much for coming on and uh always a pleasure, buddy. And uh for all of you, dear travelers, who have gone down the road this far with us, it is an absolute honor to be on this journey with you. Thank you so much for listening, and I cannot wait for the next season, which will be dropping on Halloween in just a couple months. So till then, keep your uh your enemies close, your loved ones closer, and your intentions uh signed in blood. And thus ends part two of season one's Questions and Answers. I hope you've enjoyed this little detour from the road. It's been a weird and wonderful experience getting to pull back the curtain ever so slightly and introduce you to the real person who helped inspire Jason Argyle. And to share some of the stories, experiences, and ideas that found their way into his character. Season one may be over, but our journey together isn't. I've got more bonus material coming your way throughout the hiatus. If you'd like advanced notice of when these gems will be dropping into your feed, I'll be posting announcements in the gray pages portion of the community Discord. You'll find the link in every episode description, including this one. For those who've supported the show financially through our Buy Me a Coffee link, or for anyone who needs a little more magic on their journey, the ritual of thanks will begin in just a moment. Thank you, as always, dear travelers, for walking this path with me. We'll eventually find ourselves out of the dark woods and back on that strange road when season two premieres this Halloween. Until then, take care of yourselves. Take care of the people you love. And as always, travel safely, my friends. The next stop is just around the bend. I'll see you there. Thank you. This ritual is for those who help keep this show alive. This show is a ritual offering, joyfully created and freely given in the grand tradition of the storytellers who have come before us. I know that there are plenty of things vying for your attention and support, and by feeding a portion of that here, you share in the creation of this story. As thanks, I give you my intention, attention, and time. Tonight, we have a new name to enter in the record of this magic working. Ace, this is for you. You gave freely, without expectation of reward, at a moment when this work needed it. You helped to add another strand to the grand web of stories that connects us all. For these things and more, you have my sincerest thanks. I cannot say what form this thanks will take. That part of the story is unwritten. But I will say this: May you continue to be a light in the darkness for those who are lost, and a balm for the hearts and minds of those who are wounded. May the love in your heart overflow beyond its bounds, and may it bring in only those who can recognize it for the treasure it truly is. May you know, beyond all shadow and doubt, that you are enough, just as you are, and may you continue to grow, evolve, and receive more bountiful gifts anyway. And so it is and so it shall be. And so it is and so it shall be. And so it is and so it shall be. Thank you for listening, dear travelers. May the road ahead deliver you safely until we meet again. Oh, you're still here. Well, all right. Since you've made it this far, and since you were kind enough not to skip past the ritual of thanks, I suppose I can reward you with one last little piece of bonus material. When Chase and I originally started recording part two, we actually got a few minutes into the conversation before some technical problems forced us to stop and start over. The second take went in a completely different direction, and that's the conversation you just heard. But I went back and listened to those first few minutes, and there was some good stuff in there. So here you go. A little piece of the road we didn't take.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Alright, so I have a couple more questions before my curiosity has been satiated. Cool. I have been fortunate to have experienced your writing before. I have read a novel that you wrote. I've read short stories that you've written, things that you did in college. I've been fortunate enough to see you perform since we were both in middle school. But a horror fiction podcast is a complete departure from anything that you've done before. What was it about this story in particular that inspired you to perform it rather than construct it in a novel or a short story collection?

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Cool. Yeah. Good question. So I talk about, I make mention plenty of times throughout the series that this is a ritual offering. And I think in some medium, I've talked about how it was to a trickster deity. And this is part of my own personal practice. You don't have to believe that magic is real to enjoy the story. And that's the great thing about chaos magic, is that belief is a tool. So half the time I'm doing it and I'm like, yeah, this is all crazy bullshit. But that doesn't mean it can't be useful. But I during a couple of rituals made a sort of pact with this deity that I was going to create a story. And the keeper of stories is the alias that I give this deity because they are very profound and very important to cultures that I do not belong to.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

And out of respect for those cultures, I don't claim this deity publicly because they're not mine to claim. But they are an essential part of my practice. And they're, you know, I have a personal relationship with them. So that's what that is. But the podcast format was something that was predetermined. And for a whole year, I had a year to figure out what kind of podcast it was going to be. I was given a year to do it. And, you know, for a while, I was thinking of just doing a serious like nonfiction show regarding masculinity and the regarding like the toxic aspects of masculinity that you and I have experienced that we have, I think, done a fairly good job of growing beyond. But those were definitely the waters that we swam in when we were growing up in the early 2000s in America, right? Yeah. And to see what's happening in the world today with young men and seeing how much of their story is things that I went through. And I remember when Elliot Roger killed all those women in that college campus in 2015, something like that. You know, he or 2014 or something. He like he released his little video, Manifesto, and I saw it, and it was just nightmarish for me personally, because I was like, there was a period, a very dark period in my life where I was thinking a lot of these things, where I was like grappling with all of these horrible ideas and these emotions, et cetera. And you know, I remember thinking, I was like, oh my God, but for the grace of God, there go I, you know, like that could have been me if the universe hadn't corrected, if I hadn't met the type of amazing femmes and non-binary people and queer people who showed me the horrible, horrible nature of that sort of ideology. And, you know, it's just it's this thing of like uh empathy is under attack in our culture. And it it's under attack because that is the exact thing that kills those ideas and allows people to grow. So, you know, the powers that be want to suppress that because it serves their agenda. It serves them to have all these young men angry and believing that they're victims and that women owe them these things. And so for a while I thought it was going to be that, right? And then I was like, I don't know how I can effectively tackle this in a way that is going to make sense. And it actually, it was you, it was a chance meeting with you that made me realize, like, oh no, this is going to be a podcast about parenthood. And these other aspects will be tied in, like Artie, you know, the the whole story of uh Artie Jackson and believing that he's entitled to this woman's affection, this this awful fucking delusion that skin crawl.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Yeah. Um especially him as a ghost and like sweeping up the salt and like all the all the things he was calling her. I'm just like man, if I could just have the power to like just smack the hell out of a ghost. Like, oh my god. Oh, it was terrible. Terrible.

SPEAKER_02 59:42

Yeah. Well, if it makes you feel any better, he's literally in hell right now.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Yeah. That's also the power of, you know, like a good horror story, right? Is like it can't just be Jason comes, stabs somebody, send to print, you know, like there's the build-up, there's the you know what's happening's wrong, you know, the you know, and in in that particular case, you know, to to your point of of what you know you were thinking about initially putting those elements in there and without preaching, without standing on a soapbox, which is completely valid, I would add. But in a way that maybe you're teaching through story, teaching through example, feeling those things that you see in print, you see in videos, you see in movies and stuff like that. And the fact that it makes you feel things and it makes you feel uncomfortable and like it feels concentrated once Jason finds out what he's dealing with, and then especially when he's a ghost, I think you're getting those lessons across without necessarily making it the focal point of the story.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

I mean, I'd like to think so. I'm not trying to like teach anybody. I mean, I think the one example the the one contradiction to that is the ball of light spell. Like there is something that we can take away, and that is the idea that we can hold our grief gently, you know? Uh we don't have to grip and and force and push it away or try and hold on to the people that we've lost so tightly that their memory can't breathe. There is that middle ground to it. But yeah, for me I don't want like my monsters aren't demons. My demons sometimes are more people than some of the people in my stories. Stolis is a person. Lamashtu, for all her faults, was a person, you know. She was she was a prisoner. The monster in episodes four and five isn't Marcosius or the Hellhound, it's Artie Jackson's twisted view towards women. The monster in chapters one and two isn't Kavorah the Eater, it's the insurance industry. And what they were do, especially for a second.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Yeah. Sorry, you're you started cutting out really bad when you started talking about right after the My Monsters are um and then it is like I knew what you were saying, but for editing purposes, I wonder if it's gonna sound the same to the listener.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

Okay. Well, I can start it over.